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Post by rr11 on Dec 18, 2022 12:11:00 GMT -6
Why is there this incessant need to try to change things these days? To try and rank provincial by strength of schedule is completely subjective as all the leagues aren't similar in caliber + play by different import/elite rules. Let's use D as an example since this seems to be the source of the "need" for change. Kenaston, Craik and Kyle as examples of communities luckily having a good group of hometown guys who have connections to bring in good players for league and/or provincial play. So should they be penalized for that providing the team's are on the up and up roster rules wise? All 3 are playing by the population rules and have mostly entered D (Kyle also entered C for a period of time) to keep the rinks running and provide a good source of entertainment. And it's hardly like Kenaston have been dominate in D, Kyle it can be argued have been much more dominate recently in D. Was there this much fuss raised pre social media days and differing population rules when Drake and Conquest dominated D in the '90s? The common theme would be a strong group of locals sprinkled with a few imports much like what we see today. Saying that Kenaston should jump to A is ridiculous, why should they other than it be kind of fun to see how'd they make out. They didn't exactly walk D playing Macklin, Edam and Craik...last I checked and saw they were pretty good squads. The way provincial categories are sorted based on population + import rules is the best way, leave it alone and instead enjoy the great hockey with packed arenas. I think you missed the point…how to get more teams to enter lol. You are stuck in the past sir. These rules were good like 12 years ago. Those teams you mentioned can all move up if rules change and there would be nothing wrong with that. Ahhh the old "you're stuck in the past" chestnut. You realize the population + import rules were much more restrictive in years past...SHA raising the population rules + increasing import/exception player rules in B, C, D enables more teams enter, should they choose to. AAA and A have always been the anomaly being unrestricted population + imports. In years past (2000 and beyond) unless there's records to prove it...you only had to win 3 rounds to get to a final. The only category I recall that had you needing to win 4-5 rounds was A as roster rules dictated teams with more than 3 imports/2 exceptions had to make a choice of cutting players to get into B, C, D or leaving their rosters the same per league rules (ie: HHL). The issue I believe is the respective league vs SHA rules on imports + exceptions. Most teams I believe and have been told aren't comfortable cutting players to fit into B, C or D or their full roster they've felt aren't competitive enough to enter A given other leagues that enter have traditionally paid players (ie: LLHL, HHL, QVHL) thus attracting the best imports. Ask many long time volunteers what's happened in many towns when they tried to keep up with the arms race and lost teams. If the point of wanting change is to attract more teams into provincials...I don't believe there's much that can be done. The population + import/exception rules have been relaxed in recent years to allow more teams to enter. Certainly you can't go back into time when D was 500 and below, C 1000 (or 1250) and below, B 2000 and below as that would further restrict the amount of teams able to enter. I'm betting most teams and their volunteers who coach/manage now consider the league most important and want to keep hockey going rather than try their hand in provincials. |
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Post by cheeseburger on Dec 18, 2022 13:04:45 GMT -6
I think you missed the point…how to get more teams to enter lol. You are stuck in the past sir. These rules were good like 12 years ago. Those teams you mentioned can all move up if rules change and there would be nothing wrong with that. Ahhh the old "you're stuck in the past" chestnut. You realize the population + import rules were much more restrictive in years past...SHA raising the population rules + increasing import/exception player rules in B, C, D enables more teams enter, should they choose to. AAA and A have always been the anomaly being unrestricted population + imports. In years past (2000 and beyond) unless there's records to prove it...you only had to win 3 rounds to get to a final. The only category I recall that had you needing to win 4-5 rounds was A as roster rules dictated teams with more than 3 imports/2 exceptions had to make a choice of cutting players to get into B, C, D or leaving their rosters the same per league rules (ie: HHL). The issue I believe is the respective league vs SHA rules on imports + exceptions. Most teams I believe and have been told aren't comfortable cutting players to fit into B, C or D or their full roster they've felt aren't competitive enough to enter A given other leagues that enter have traditionally paid players (ie: LLHL, HHL, QVHL) thus attracting the best imports. Ask many long time volunteers what's happened in many towns when they tried to keep up with the arms race and lost teams. If the point of wanting change is to attract more teams into provincials...I don't believe there's much that can be done. The population + import/exception rules have been relaxed in recent years to allow more teams to enter. Certainly you can't go back into time when D was 500 and below, C 1000 (or 1250) and below, B 2000 and below as that would further restrict the amount of teams able to enter. I'm betting most teams and their volunteers who coach/manage now consider the league most important and want to keep hockey going rather than try their hand in provincials. there is lots you can do. If change never happens there will be like 14 teams in ten years who only enter. The more teams the better forsure, but when you say the rules getting relaxed and it allows more teams to enter is bull shit. The draws are getting smaller each year. Maybe D you lower the non import radius? Let’s be honest, yakubowski or tkatch should not be be classified as non import locals lol. And that goes for all the other teams as well. I did read dalmeny population was added. You could go 3 elites plus ur home town guys etc. no been there three years so ur grandfathered. I don’t even know what I just said made sense lol |
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Post by Gunit on Dec 18, 2022 13:30:32 GMT -6
Rankings are too subjective. Who exactly is going to conduct the ranking?
I like the suggested increase to import allowances. I think you could take it one step further and allow for teams to draw outside the 120km for any player that hasn’t played Jr A or higher. Many teams/leagues don’t have the population to draw from so are forced to draw from Cities like North Battleford/Swift/Yorkton/Estevan. But then they have to enter A with players that haven’t played Junior, so they just don’t enter. Not saying that a player has to have played Junior to be elite but it sure would be nice to have a couple of “non-elite” exceptions that these teams need to be more competitive but not be considered “imports”.
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Post by rr11 on Dec 18, 2022 14:10:08 GMT -6
Ahhh the old "you're stuck in the past" chestnut. You realize the population + import rules were much more restrictive in years past...SHA raising the population rules + increasing import/exception player rules in B, C, D enables more teams enter, should they choose to. AAA and A have always been the anomaly being unrestricted population + imports. In years past (2000 and beyond) unless there's records to prove it...you only had to win 3 rounds to get to a final. The only category I recall that had you needing to win 4-5 rounds was A as roster rules dictated teams with more than 3 imports/2 exceptions had to make a choice of cutting players to get into B, C, D or leaving their rosters the same per league rules (ie: HHL). The issue I believe is the respective league vs SHA rules on imports + exceptions. Most teams I believe and have been told aren't comfortable cutting players to fit into B, C or D or their full roster they've felt aren't competitive enough to enter A given other leagues that enter have traditionally paid players (ie: LLHL, HHL, QVHL) thus attracting the best imports. Ask many long time volunteers what's happened in many towns when they tried to keep up with the arms race and lost teams. If the point of wanting change is to attract more teams into provincials...I don't believe there's much that can be done. The population + import/exception rules have been relaxed in recent years to allow more teams to enter. Certainly you can't go back into time when D was 500 and below, C 1000 (or 1250) and below, B 2000 and below as that would further restrict the amount of teams able to enter. I'm betting most teams and their volunteers who coach/manage now consider the league most important and want to keep hockey going rather than try their hand in provincials. there is lots you can do. If change never happens there will be like 14 teams in ten years who only enter. The more teams the better forsure, but when you say the rules getting relaxed and it allows more teams to enter is bull shit. The draws are getting smaller each year. Maybe D you lower the non import radius? Let’s be honest, yakubowski or tkatch should not be be classified as non import locals lol. And that goes for all the other teams as well. I did read dalmeny population was added. You could go 3 elites plus ur home town guys etc. no been there three years so ur grandfathered. I don’t even know what I just said made sense lol The import + population rules for SHA provincials are such that more teams have the ability to enter without having to cut anyone and/or have the ability to take on a center or 2 to bolster a lineup. Is there any data to support there's been a dramatic drop off in teams entering despite the population + import rules favoring teams to not alter their lineups for provincials or being able to add centers to fit a roster into a category? If the end goal is to increase the number of teams in provincials...are the teams, more importantly the players willing to play more games? Furthermore...the number of SHA officials available is already being stretched thin, would that group be able to handle an increase? I can't speak for some of the league's out there but I don't see a tremendous desire from teams in the SPHL, TRHL, NHL, WHL to enter as an example. Senior hockey has and always will be cyclical...Kenaston right now has a bunch of hometown/exception players that will make them extremely competitive in league + provincials for a while. Them winning the SVHL last year is their first one plus the odd every 10 year prov D run has got them 3 D banners. Look at Watrous and Lanigan...traditionally two of the best LLHL teams and have some SHA banners yet are struggling the last couple years. What about a community like Wilke...they've had a great run but is their run coming to an end with some of their veterans soon to call it a day? I believe no matter the rules...some leagues just don't have the desire to enter. Whereas other leagues like SVHL, LLHL, SWHL, QVHHL will continue to have the majority of their teams enter provincials. |
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Post by dufe92 on Dec 18, 2022 14:16:56 GMT -6
I think the goal would be to get teams from those leagues to enter if there maybe was some modification's/changes? I have def noticed the draws be smaller recently.
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Post by inone69 on Dec 18, 2022 22:30:13 GMT -6
I think the goal would be to get teams from those leagues to enter if there maybe was some modification's/changes? I have def noticed the draws be smaller recently. Go watch the Vonda rec hockey tourney if you want to see that calibre of hockey and let me enjoy the classic competitive matchups we see the way it is right now. |
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Post by 5th liner on Dec 19, 2022 7:12:25 GMT -6
TRHL you used as an example of a league with little interest in provincials but the teams that are local teams suck, and the top tier teams in that league have guys from all over the place so they can’t be competitive in any level of provincials
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Post by sexycoil5000 on Dec 19, 2022 9:39:19 GMT -6
Rankings are too subjective. Who exactly is going to conduct the ranking? I like the suggested increase to import allowances. I think you could take it one step further and allow for teams to draw outside the 120km for any player that hasn’t played Jr A or higher. Many teams/leagues don’t have the population to draw from so are forced to draw from Cities like North Battleford/Swift/Yorkton/Estevan. But then they have to enter A with players that haven’t played Junior, so they just don’t enter. Not saying that a player has to have played Junior to be elite but it sure would be nice to have a couple of “non-elite” exceptions that these teams need to be more competitive but not be considered “imports”. I don't think a simple ranking system would be that difficult. Sask baseball switched to this format a few years back and there are rarely any blowouts, unless teams have no-shows. There are hardly any repeat champions and it seems to be as competitive as ever. For example: the last few years there have been some low caliber teams out of Saskatoon that have competed in the lower divisions against small towns. In years past, they were likely unable to compete because they were thrown into a tournament with the best teams out of Stoon and Regina, based on their population. I believe when this format was first proposed- Sask baseball was going to send "scouts" to watch teams to rank them.. within a few years they were able to rank teams very evenly without having to even attend many (or any) games based off of rosters, record, pickups, etc.. Personally, I think most of the hardos on this forum could easily take the X amount of teams entered into provincials on any given year, and divide them into four divisions that would be WAY more competitive than what they are now. A committee could even be formed to get together and scout teams or rank them. |
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Post by Slick on Dec 19, 2022 12:07:09 GMT -6
TRHL you used as an example of a league with little interest in provincials but the teams that are local teams suck, and the top tier teams in that league have guys from all over the place so they can’t be competitive in any level of provincials Why would any team in TRHL have interest in going up against Kenaston, Kyle, Craik and Macklin in D? |
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Post by skipbayless on Dec 19, 2022 12:39:49 GMT -6
TRHL can't compete due to their "ELITE" rule, but Rosthern and Birch Hills found ways to be competitive last year by joining forces with other towns.
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Post by Rider_85 on Dec 19, 2022 13:14:36 GMT -6
There needs to be some kind of rework. I don't hate the way things are set up right now, but it's damn near impossible for more rural communities to compete with towns close to the cities. Kenaston's D team had what, 7? 8? Ex-WHL players? I don't think there's 8 WHL guys in the entire northeast. Assume it's the same for teams in other corners of the province. I find it quite funny that when Kyle was paying Boehm and co to win league and provincials, or when FL was paying Leech $700/gm and knocked Kenaston out of provincials, it was awfully quiet as far as rule changes go. Now that Kenaston has had some sustained success for what, 14 months, now they’re are the example of why rules need to be changed?? Because of one league championship in 25 yrs, and a provincial title, first one in 10?? Teams pickup players throughout the province, it’s the same rules for everyone. Some teams don’t want to commit to playing 2-3 games a week until the end of March, some don’t have the talent. But to use a small towns recent success as an example of why things need to be changed is laughable. Go watch adult safe in Saskatoon if you want to see that, I prefer to watch Kenaston/Craik, Davidson/Dinsmore, or Outlook/Kindersley. Damn good hockey right there. |
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Post by 5th liner on Dec 19, 2022 13:44:49 GMT -6
I wouldn’t change the current format. I would just add an E division with 1 import and a few non imports so some other towns can start playing provincials. Some towns don’t get the support they need to pay players but with a successful provincial E run it may garner some interest and communities can grow the game.
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Post by 5th liner on Dec 19, 2022 14:00:26 GMT -6
Also I’m not 100% on the ranking system but it could be helpful to teams like the Twin Rivers teams. A lot of these teams have combined towns and add in PA or Saskatoon players but they could never enter their team in A. And they have to drop guys to enter lower Divisions but the build up of teams like this is much different than a Kenaston type. Having 3 ex huskies as non imports is a lot different than having junior b or AA failures as non imports. Some guys just want to play hockey and some towns just need players and can’t pay top tier guys
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Post by inone69 on Dec 19, 2022 16:18:17 GMT -6
Also I’m not 100% on the ranking system but it could be helpful to teams like the Twin Rivers teams. A lot of these teams have combined towns and add in PA or Saskatoon players but they could never enter their team in A. And they have to drop guys to enter lower Divisions but the build up of teams like this is much different than a Kenaston type. Having 3 ex huskies as non imports is a lot different than having junior b or AA failures as non imports. Some guys just want to play hockey and some towns just need players and can’t pay top tier guys There’s plenty of other leagues the teams in the twin rivers could join if want to take provincials serious. 3/4 of these teams are glorified rec teams should not be punishing teams in other leagues to make things more competitive for them. |
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Post by Provincial commissioner on Dec 19, 2022 16:41:11 GMT -6
There needs to be some kind of rework. I don't hate the way things are set up right now, but it's damn near impossible for more rural communities to compete with towns close to the cities. Kenaston's D team had what, 7? 8? Ex-WHL players? I don't think there's 8 WHL guys in the entire northeast. Assume it's the same for teams in other corners of the province. I find it quite funny that when Kyle was paying Boehm and co to win league and provincials, or when FL was paying Leech $700/gm and knocked Kenaston out of provincials, it was awfully quiet as far as rule changes go. Now that Kenaston has had some sustained success for what, 14 months, now they’re are the example of why rules need to be changed?? Because of one league championship in 25 yrs, and a provincial title, first one in 10?? Teams pickup players throughout the province, it’s the same rules for everyone. Some teams don’t want to commit to playing 2-3 games a week until the end of March, some don’t have the talent. But to use a small towns recent success as an example of why things need to be changed is laughable. Go watch adult safe in Saskatoon if you want to see that, I prefer to watch Kenaston/Craik, Davidson/Dinsmore, or Outlook/Kindersley. Damn good hockey right there. You’re an idiot. Slightly arrogant comment clearly from a Kenaston guy. It’s got nothing to do with whose paying who or whose currently the best. The point that a lot of people want is the best teams all playing against each other for the same title. If Kenaston is the best team they should be playing against the other best teams for the best competition and the best hockey to watch. I’ve never said there’s anything wrong with Kenaston lol entering D if they fit within the rules. I’m saying the rules aren’t good. The system would be way better if some of the shittier teams could enter against other shitty teams in the lower divisions. But for now teams don’t want to enter because they know they will get smoked by a few of the top teams in D/C. No idea how to do it, but a system that pits the top teams against the top teams would be the best especially if it allowed for different tiers. This would get more teams entering and allow the teams that either don’t have ten ex junior players or can’t afford to bring in imports. No one faults Kenaston for not wanting to play the best teams because the system allows for it currently. |
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